Discussion:
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card?
(too old to reply)
ThePainter
2009-06-08 16:12:27 UTC
Permalink
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No child
left behind policies"
Newf_Mom
2009-06-08 20:58:45 UTC
Permalink
There is not simple yes or no answer to that question.

Many kids either have the option of doing some kind of summer school
work in order to pass, or, in some cases they get an administrative
pass. Either one is terrible policy as there is no incentive to pass
as these kids have learned they can dick around all school year, and
spend a couple weeks in the summer doing a couple of worksheets and
will get moved up- no real effort required!

It also depends on what subjects they flunk- if they flunk their core
subjects (English, Math, Science), they can be held back but other
factors are considered- does the child have a 504 plan, has the child
been held back before, etc etc..... it is not really black and white.
Sometimes summer school is enough to pass, if they failed more than
one core subject, possibly summer school is not enough. An
administrative pass can be applied in different circumstances and at
the discretion of the administrator. I have seen admin passes done
just to pass the kid along to high school to get him/her out of the
school so they can become someone elses problem- this is justifiable
when the child has flunked a grade before -- they can also pass based
on standardized test scores.
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No child
left behind policies"
myrou angie loctine r inluv and addicted to odars k
2020-10-10 19:13:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Newf_Mom
There is not simple yes or no answer to that question.
Many kids either have the option of doing some kind of summer school
work in order to pass, or, in some cases they get an administrative
pass. Either one is terrible policy as there is no incentive to pass
as these kids have learned they can dick around all school year, and
spend a couple weeks in the summer doing a couple of worksheets and
will get moved up- no real effort required!
It also depends on what subjects they flunk- if they flunk their core
subjects (English, Math, Science), they can be held back but other
factors are considered- does the child have a 504 plan, has the child
been held back before, etc etc..... it is not really black and white.
Sometimes summer school is enough to pass, if they failed more than
one core subject, possibly summer school is not enough. An
administrative pass can be applied in different circumstances and at
the discretion of the administrator. I have seen admin passes done
just to pass the kid along to high school to get him/her out of the
school so they can become someone elses problem- this is justifiable
when the child has flunked a grade before -- they can also pass based
on standardized test scores.
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No child
left behind policies"
"nigga whata fuck is yo shit even saying, my ass worried bout my neighbors lil cousins failing all their classes and failing 4 classes for an elementary school kid"
emanuel diaz
2021-02-17 16:09:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by myrou angie loctine r inluv and addicted to odars k
Post by Newf_Mom
There is not simple yes or no answer to that question.
Many kids either have the option of doing some kind of summer school
work in order to pass, or, in some cases they get an administrative
pass. Either one is terrible policy as there is no incentive to pass
as these kids have learned they can dick around all school year, and
spend a couple weeks in the summer doing a couple of worksheets and
will get moved up- no real effort required!
It also depends on what subjects they flunk- if they flunk their core
subjects (English, Math, Science), they can be held back but other
factors are considered- does the child have a 504 plan, has the child
been held back before, etc etc..... it is not really black and white.
Sometimes summer school is enough to pass, if they failed more than
one core subject, possibly summer school is not enough. An
administrative pass can be applied in different circumstances and at
the discretion of the administrator. I have seen admin passes done
just to pass the kid along to high school to get him/her out of the
school so they can become someone elses problem- this is justifiable
when the child has flunked a grade before -- they can also pass based
on standardized test scores.
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No child
left behind policies"
"nigga whata fuck is yo shit even saying, my ass worried bout my neighbors lil cousins failing all their classes and failing 4 classes for an elementary school kid"
m***@hotmail.com
2009-06-08 21:02:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No child
left behind policies"
Not usually no but it can happen. The research seems to suggest that
the social/emotional consequences of keeping a child behind (or a
child skipping grades) outweigh the benefits of repeating a grade. The
final decision will largely depend on how severe the child's deficits
are.

Mark
leafs74
2009-06-08 21:43:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No child
left behind policies"
Not usually no but it can happen. The research seems to suggest that
the social/emotional consequences of keeping a child behind (or a
child skipping grades) outweigh the benefits of repeating a grade. The
final decision will largely depend on how severe the child's deficits
are.
Mark
What will be the social and emotional consequences of a child
graduating high school without even being able to form a coherent
sentence? A large portion of the people who graduated with me could
barely even read.
In my own humble opinion, far too much emphasis is placed on the self-
esteem of Little Johnny in grade 4, and the effects of keeping him
back to make sure meets the prescribed goals.
Sure, being held back may hurt for the short term, but in the long
term it could very well do much more good.
m***@hotmail.com
2009-06-09 00:09:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No child
left behind policies"
Not usually no but it can happen. The research seems to suggest that
the social/emotional consequences of keeping a child behind (or a
child skipping grades) outweigh the benefits of repeating a grade. The
final decision will largely depend on how severe the child's deficits
are.
Mark
 What will be the social and emotional consequences of a child
graduating high school without even being able to form a coherent
sentence? A large portion of the people who graduated with me could
barely even read.
 In my own humble opinion, far too much emphasis is placed on the self-
esteem of Little Johnny in grade 4, and the effects of keeping him
back to make sure meets the prescribed goals.
 Sure, being held back may hurt for the short term, but in the long
term it could very well do much more good.
Agreed. There are, in fact, emotional/social consequences associated
with lack of academic ability in later years. However, it is generally
agreed that such consequences are not as damaging as being held back.
Typically, by the time students have reached high school they have
developed protective mechanisms to defend against this (again, not to
say it can not be damaging). However, the impact of being held back in
the early years can be devastating, given this sensitive developmental
period. However, the merits of being held back should be investigated
on an individual basis - this approach may work for some children.

Mark
leafs74
2009-06-09 01:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No child
left behind policies"
Not usually no but it can happen. The research seems to suggest that
the social/emotional consequences of keeping a child behind (or a
child skipping grades) outweigh the benefits of repeating a grade. The
final decision will largely depend on how severe the child's deficits
are.
Mark
 What will be the social and emotional consequences of a child
graduating high school without even being able to form a coherent
sentence? A large portion of the people who graduated with me could
barely even read.
 In my own humble opinion, far too much emphasis is placed on the self-
esteem of Little Johnny in grade 4, and the effects of keeping him
back to make sure meets the prescribed goals.
 Sure, being held back may hurt for the short term, but in the long
term it could very well do much more good.
Agreed. There are, in fact, emotional/social consequences associated
with lack of academic ability in later years. However, it is generally
agreed that such consequences are not as damaging as being held back.
I'm asserting that it is more damaging to society to have kids sailing
through school without picking up even the most basic of skills. A
large portion of grade 12 graduates today are functionally illiterate.
I'd much rather have a child with a bruised ego in grade 4 grow up to
actually become academically competent, as opposed to a kid with full
self-esteem sail through school without becoming educated.
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Typically, by the time students have reached high school they have
developed protective mechanisms to defend against this (again, not to
say it can not be damaging). However, the impact of being held back in
the early years can be devastating, given this sensitive developmental
period. However, the merits of being held back should be investigated
on an individual basis - this approach may work for some children.
Mark- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
m***@hotmail.com
2009-06-09 02:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by leafs74
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No child
left behind policies"
Not usually no but it can happen. The research seems to suggest that
the social/emotional consequences of keeping a child behind (or a
child skipping grades) outweigh the benefits of repeating a grade. The
final decision will largely depend on how severe the child's deficits
are.
Mark
 What will be the social and emotional consequences of a child
graduating high school without even being able to form a coherent
sentence? A large portion of the people who graduated with me could
barely even read.
 In my own humble opinion, far too much emphasis is placed on the self-
esteem of Little Johnny in grade 4, and the effects of keeping him
back to make sure meets the prescribed goals.
 Sure, being held back may hurt for the short term, but in the long
term it could very well do much more good.
Agreed. There are, in fact, emotional/social consequences associated
with lack of academic ability in later years. However, it is generally
agreed that such consequences are not as damaging as being held back.
I'm asserting that it is more damaging to society to have kids sailing
through school without picking up even the most basic of skills. A
large portion of grade 12 graduates today are functionally illiterate.
I'd much rather have a child with a bruised ego in grade 4 grow up to
actually become academically competent, as opposed to a kid with full
self-esteem sail through school without becoming educated.
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Typically, by the time students have reached high school they have
developed protective mechanisms to defend against this (again, not to
say it can not be damaging). However, the impact of being held back in
the early years can be devastating, given this sensitive developmental
period. However, the merits of being held back should be investigated
on an individual basis - this approach may work for some children.
Mark- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Actually, it may be more dangerous to society to have in individual
with early onset and severe social/emotional impairments as this can
lead to psychopathology in later years, especially if genetic risks
are present. Also, I question your assumption that "A large portion of
grade 12 graduates today are functionally illiterate" - ambiguousness
aside, this statement does not appear to have any basis in reality,
certainly not pertaining to actual academic performance of grade 12
students in NL. Are there exceptions to the general rule? Of course,
but they are outliers and should not be generalized as a valid sample
of the particular population.

Again, i'm not saying I disagree with retaining a student if it is
deemed necessary by say an IEP committee. However, such decisions
should be made on an individual basis and consider the developmental
level of the child. Whatever the outcome, the research literature is
clear of the potentially damaging effects of retaining (or skipping) a
student.

Mark
Marie
2009-06-08 21:26:12 UTC
Permalink
I was born at the wrong time. When I went to school, we were tested on the
whole year at the end of the school year and not on a week or two of work.
And yes, children had to repeat grades when they failed to pass the test at
the end of the year. A lot of my friends learned the hard way that you
cannot coast through school on what you should know rather than on what you
do know.

I work with engineers who have managed to come out of university with a
degree, but are unable to put two coherent sentences together. They can't
'think outside the box' because everything they did in school was spoon fed
to them and they didn't have to think, or even know how to spell for that
matter.

Today's children are extremely smart and with the technology available to
them they should be overshadowing the previous generations by a mile. They
need to be challenged as everything they need is at their fingertips. Case
in point are the children who build their own robots for undersea work -
they were given a challenge and exceeded expectations. Good for them. We
as parents (and grandparents) need to encourage the children to do their
best. The 'can do' attitude has to prevail rather than the 'Johnny can't'
mentality. As my mother used to say, "Can't and try!!" If a child hears
that he 'can't' do math or English often enough, then that child will soon
be convinced that they 'can't' do it.

Personally I think the time has come for the whole education system to be
revamped. Challenge children. Demand respect for authority, classmates and
school and others property but mainly for themselves. They are definitely
smart enough.

M
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No
child left behind policies"
Davvee
2009-06-08 22:35:21 UTC
Permalink
Hear Hear!!!
Post by Marie
I was born at the wrong time. When I went to school, we were tested on the
whole year at the end of the school year and not on a week or two of work.
And yes, children had to repeat grades when they failed to pass the test at
the end of the year. A lot of my friends learned the hard way that you
cannot coast through school on what you should know rather than on what you
do know.
I work with engineers who have managed to come out of university with a
degree, but are unable to put two coherent sentences together. They can't
'think outside the box' because everything they did in school was spoon fed
to them and they didn't have to think, or even know how to spell for that
matter.
Today's children are extremely smart and with the technology available to
them they should be overshadowing the previous generations by a mile. They
need to be challenged as everything they need is at their fingertips. Case
in point are the children who build their own robots for undersea work -
they were given a challenge and exceeded expectations. Good for them. We
as parents (and grandparents) need to encourage the children to do their
best. The 'can do' attitude has to prevail rather than the 'Johnny can't'
mentality. As my mother used to say, "Can't and try!!" If a child hears
that he 'can't' do math or English often enough, then that child will soon
be convinced that they 'can't' do it.
Personally I think the time has come for the whole education system to be
revamped. Challenge children. Demand respect for authority, classmates and
school and others property but mainly for themselves. They are definitely
smart enough.
M
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No
child left behind policies"
Carter
2009-06-08 22:49:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marie
I was born at the wrong time. When I went to school, we were tested on the
whole year at the end of the school year and not on a week or two of work.
And yes, children had to repeat grades when they failed to pass the test at
the end of the year. A lot of my friends learned the hard way that you
cannot coast through school on what you should know rather than on what you
do know.
I work with engineers who have managed to come out of university with a
degree, but are unable to put two coherent sentences together. They can't
'think outside the box' because everything they did in school was spoon fed
to them and they didn't have to think, or even know how to spell for that
matter.
I wonder if it was one of them who composed the title of this thread?

Carter
Mookie
2009-06-08 23:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No child
left behind policies"
Maybe if more kids got held back they might know the difference
between "there" and "their"
m***@hotmail.com
2009-06-09 00:02:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mookie
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No child
left behind policies"
Maybe if more kids got held back they might know the difference
between "there" and "their"
I know many older adults with the same problem
Jim
2009-06-09 00:32:33 UTC
Permalink
No wonder many of the kids these days are running wild.
They seem to be answerable to no one or nothing.
If I screwed around when I was going to school, I fail and I got
kept back a year...that's why I studied and passed all my subjects.
I didn't want to be like a few in my class who were 3-4 years older
than the rest of the class. Hell..I remember one girl who was 16 in grade 7.
She was finally expelled for being caught with drugs on school property.

I'd rather see kids held back than to have even more idiots on the streets.
We have too many of those as it is. We don't need more.
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No
child left behind policies"
Jessica
2009-06-09 02:26:23 UTC
Permalink
My friend's son "graduated" from grade 12 a couple of years ago. I think
the last grade he actually passed was grade 4. All the other years he was
passed on. When he got in the higher grades he slacked all year. No
homework, no assignments, barely passed any tests/exams, if he did pass it
was only by a few marks. The last month or so in school the teachers gave
him extra assignments and work to do to make up for not passing the rest of
the year. So basically he slacked for 9 months, did the few pitiful
assignments at the end of the year and they gave him a pass to get his
credits. I remember one night when he was in about grade 9. He decided to
write a story (not for homework). He was working away writing on this sheet
of paper. When he was finished he started to read it. When he finished
reading, he put the piece of paper on the table and I looked at what he
wrote. None of the words on the paper made sense. What he was 'reading'
definitely was not what was on the paper. Not even close! This guy is now
considered a high school graduate, but I can guarantee he barely knows how
to write his own name. I'm definitely not perfect when it come to writing,
but I was shocked that someone at that age could be so illiterate.
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No
child left behind policies"
m***@hotmail.com
2009-06-09 02:51:30 UTC
Permalink
My friend's son "graduated" from grade 12 a couple of years ago.  I think
the last grade he actually passed was grade 4. All the other years he was
passed on.  When he got in the higher grades he slacked all year.  No
homework, no assignments, barely passed any tests/exams, if he did pass it
was only by a few marks.  The last month or so in school the teachers gave
him extra assignments and work to do to make up for not passing the rest of
the year. So basically  he slacked for 9 months, did the few pitiful
assignments at the end of the year and they gave him a pass to get his
credits.  I remember one night when he was in about grade 9. He decided to
write a story (not for homework).  He was working away writing on this sheet
of paper.  When he was finished he started to read it.  When he finished
reading, he put the piece of paper on the table and I looked at what he
wrote.  None of the words on the paper made sense.  What he was 'reading'
definitely was not what was on the paper.  Not even close!  This guy is now
considered a high school graduate, but I can guarantee he barely knows how
to write his own name.  I'm definitely not perfect when it come to writing,
but I was shocked that someone at that age could be so illiterate.
Was this child diagnosed with any sort of disability? The situation
you describe sounds like an individual with some form of a learning
disability. If what you report is in fact the case, then this is the
exception and not the general rule. In the case you mention i'd also
question the parenting skills of your friend cause if this child's
problems in school were not the result of a diagnosed exceptionality
then he was probably not getting the support at home. If it were my
child, homework and assignments would be done - with my supervision
and/or aid if necessary. If the best my child could do was get 60's
then fine, but it would be his/her best effort.

I'm not denying a potential failure of the school system here...just
pointing out that it works quite well for the majority of students who
enroll in K-12 in NL.

Mark
daveHX
2009-06-09 07:38:06 UTC
Permalink
I disagree. I've seen too many cases firsthand to agree. The education
system is a joke. Keep in mind Mr. Warren, that the morons that are
being ouched through school will be running the country when you're a
senior citizen
Post by m***@hotmail.com
I'm not denying a potential failure of the school system here...just
pointing out that it works quite well for the majority of students who
enroll in K-12 in NL.
Mark
m***@hotmail.com
2009-06-09 12:32:57 UTC
Permalink
I disagree. I've seen too many cases firsthand to agree. The  education
system is a joke. Keep in mind Mr. Warren, that the morons that are
being ouched through school will be running the country when you're a
senior citizen
Anecdotes do not provide sound evidence of a given phenomenon but they
are more persuasive thaan other forms of evidence because they are
often personal and emotional. Sure, you could find students who have
graduated from the system in NL who are academically incompetent but
they in no way are generalizable to the population of students in this
province. By your logic smoking is a great thing because most people I
know who have smoked for many years have lived long healthy lives.

The real evidence lies in students' actual grades as they progress
through the school system, in combination with the results of
standardized tests - province wide comparsions which are valid can be
made from such data. Having analyzed such data from several school
years (within the last 6 years) I can tell you that student scores
across all subject areas are where they are supposed to be for a
normal population. The education system is not a joke - at least not
based on the few cases you have observed.

Mark
Gabby
2009-06-09 13:18:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@hotmail.com
I disagree. I've seen too many cases firsthand to agree. The  education
system is a joke. Keep in mind Mr. Warren, that the morons that are
being ouched through school will be running the country when you're a
senior citizen
Anecdotes do not provide sound evidence of a given phenomenon but they
are more persuasive thaan other forms of evidence because they are
often personal and emotional. Sure, you could find students who have
graduated from the system in NL who are academically incompetent but
they in no way are generalizable to the population of students in this
province. By your logic smoking is a great thing because most people I
know who have smoked for many years have lived long healthy lives.
The real evidence lies in students' actual grades as they progress
through the school system, in combination with the results of
standardized tests - province wide comparsions which are valid can be
made from such data. Having analyzed such data from several school
years (within the last 6 years) I can tell you that student scores
across all subject areas are where they are supposed to be for a
normal population. The education system is not a joke - at least not
based on the few cases you have observed.
Mark
I don't put too much credence in the 'standardized tests' since I
found out from a teacher friend of mine that teachers in that school
routinely change answers for their class in order not to look bad.
m***@hotmail.com
2009-06-09 13:28:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gabby
Post by m***@hotmail.com
I disagree. I've seen too many cases firsthand to agree. The  education
system is a joke. Keep in mind Mr. Warren, that the morons that are
being ouched through school will be running the country when you're a
senior citizen
Anecdotes do not provide sound evidence of a given phenomenon but they
are more persuasive thaan other forms of evidence because they are
often personal and emotional. Sure, you could find students who have
graduated from the system in NL who are academically incompetent but
they in no way are generalizable to the population of students in this
province. By your logic smoking is a great thing because most people I
know who have smoked for many years have lived long healthy lives.
The real evidence lies in students' actual grades as they progress
through the school system, in combination with the results of
standardized tests - province wide comparsions which are valid can be
made from such data. Having analyzed such data from several school
years (within the last 6 years) I can tell you that student scores
across all subject areas are where they are supposed to be for a
normal population. The education system is not a joke - at least not
based on the few cases you have observed.
Mark
I don't put too much credence in the 'standardized tests' since I
found out from a teacher friend of mine that teachers in that school
routinely change answers for their class in order not to look bad.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
This is a problem and any teacher who acts in this manner should find
themselves without a job. There are shady teachers out there, as with
other professions, which can give others a bad name.

Mark
Newf_Mom
2009-06-09 14:22:07 UTC
Permalink
The sad part is how easy it is to have a child diagnosed with some
sort of disability..... poor parenting and laziness now gives children
carte blanche to skate through school- this way there is no effort
required by the kid or by the parent. Win win.

The situation needs to be scrutinzed and changed- no more of this ISP/
504 plan crap for every little teeny tiny minute problem that kids
have or parents claim that their kids have. The purpose of the ISP/504
plan has been so bastardized that it now covers a kid who has a "small
baldder" and has to be allowed to leave the classroom at will because
they have to pee. They used to be for legitimate exceptionalities,
now, it is possible to have 10 kids in one class who have them- and
teachers HAVE to comply- or face losing their jobs. So much blame gets
put back on teacher but no one realizes how many rules that teachers
have to follow in order not to:
offend a child ("sit down and be quiet" is offensive, especially to a
child who "can't control themselves through a diagnosed handicap such
as ADD/ADHD)
insure success of a child (which can mean that a teacher must give
credit to one child just because he or she can put their name legibly
on a piece of paper but the child next to them must get more than 50%
of the answers correctly to get credit for the work- so success is not
really something you can measure or quantify)
encrouage the children (but you can't set unrealistic expectiations
for children who have been diagnosed with emotional handicaps- this
could upset them, "you can do better work, you are capable" that is a
huge no no- they can't do better- they are EH!)
and heaven forbid if a teacher tries to have any boundaries or
classroom rules or behaviour management in the classroom- you can't do
that when you have a number of children who have 504 plans or ISPs-
you can't require THEM to sit and be quiet or sit and do seat work...
so if you can't have part of the class under control, there is no way
to control the rest. And you surely can't send them to the office- if
you do, they will send them back to you and then chastise you for not
having good classroom management skills. You can't look at the class
of 30 and say "ok, 21 of you have to sit down, be quiet, and do your
work, the others are going to be swinging from the rafters, running
around, and disturbing you and that is ok, just ignore them, they have
a special plan that you don't have."
Teachers hands are tied and they get more and more restrictions placed
on them because of these kids and their parents.
I taught for years, my mother is a teacher, my dad is a retired
teacher, my sister is a teacher, both grandparents were teachers.
Teachers seem to get the blame when students do not succeed or can not
read.... it is the system, not the teachers (for the most part), that
are failing to properly educate our youth.

With all of this said, there are children who have legitimate special
needs- but these needs should be met in special education settings,
not in the mainstream- it does not work- the concept has been
misconstrued. Kids with special needs need special attention- parents
do not want their children "ostracized" but what they do not realize
is that it is for the best for that child- it is not because no one
wants to deal with them or they are being punished- if anything, this
works so much better for them in the long run but parents, in their
ignorance of the way they system works, make demands that their child
be acommodated so accommodating takes place- at the expense of the
quality of education everyone, including their child, receives.
Special education requirements need to be met by teachers who are
specially trained for this. Regular education teachers are not trained
on how to deal with these special needs children, they are just told
what they can and can not do, and what special accommodations have to
be made for them. That is it!

Until someone who really cares about education, someone who has been
in the trenches, teaching grade 7 for years- until someone who truly
understands what the needs are and where the shortfalls are- until
this person steps into a role of power- the true problems will never
be made public, and the solution will never even be suggested much
less put in place.
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by Gabby
Post by m***@hotmail.com
I disagree. I've seen too many cases firsthand to agree. The  education
system is a joke. Keep in mind Mr. Warren, that the morons that are
being ouched through school will be running the country when you're a
senior citizen
Anecdotes do not provide sound evidence of a given phenomenon but they
are more persuasive thaan other forms of evidence because they are
often personal and emotional. Sure, you could find students who have
graduated from the system in NL who are academically incompetent but
they in no way are generalizable to the population of students in this
province. By your logic smoking is a great thing because most people I
know who have smoked for many years have lived long healthy lives.
The real evidence lies in students' actual grades as they progress
through the school system, in combination with the results of
standardized tests - province wide comparsions which are valid can be
made from such data. Having analyzed such data from several school
years (within the last 6 years) I can tell you that student scores
across all subject areas are where they are supposed to be for a
normal population. The education system is not a joke - at least not
based on the few cases you have observed.
Mark
I don't put too much credence in the 'standardized tests' since I
found out from a teacher friend of mine that teachers in that school
routinely change answers for their class in order not to look bad.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
This is a problem and any teacher who acts in this manner should find
themselves without a job. There are shady teachers out there, as with
other professions, which can give others a bad name.
Mark- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
m***@hotmail.com
2009-06-09 15:00:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Newf_Mom
The sad part is how easy it is to have a child diagnosed with some
sort of disability..... poor parenting and laziness now gives children
carte blanche to skate through school- this way there is no effort
required by the kid or by the parent. Win win.
The situation needs to be scrutinzed and changed- no more of this ISP/
504 plan crap for every little teeny tiny minute problem that kids
have or parents claim that their kids have. The purpose of the ISP/504
plan has been so bastardized that it now covers a kid who has a "small
baldder" and has to be allowed to leave the classroom at will because
they have to pee. They used to be for legitimate exceptionalities,
now, it is possible to have 10 kids in one class who have them- and
teachers HAVE to comply- or face losing their jobs. So much blame gets
put back on teacher but no one realizes how many rules that teachers
offend a child ("sit down and be quiet" is offensive, especially to a
child who "can't control themselves through a diagnosed handicap such
as ADD/ADHD)
insure success of a child (which can mean that a teacher must give
credit to one child just because he or she can put their name legibly
on a piece of paper but the child next to them must get more than 50%
of the answers correctly to get credit for the work- so success is not
really something you can measure or quantify)
encrouage the children (but you can't set unrealistic expectiations
for children who have been diagnosed with emotional handicaps- this
could upset them, "you can do better work, you are capable" that is a
huge no no- they can't do better- they are EH!)
and heaven forbid if a teacher tries to have any boundaries or
classroom rules or behaviour management in the classroom- you can't do
that when you have a number of children who have 504 plans or ISPs-
you can't require THEM to sit and be quiet or sit and do seat work...
so if you can't have part of the class under control, there is no way
to control the rest. And you surely can't send them to the office- if
you do, they will send them back to you and then chastise you for not
having good classroom management skills. You can't look at the class
of 30 and say "ok, 21 of you have to sit down, be quiet, and do your
work, the others are going to be swinging from the rafters, running
around, and disturbing you and that is ok, just ignore them, they have
a special plan that you don't have."
Teachers hands are tied and they get more and more restrictions placed
on them because of these kids and their parents.
I taught for years, my mother is a teacher, my dad is a retired
teacher, my sister is a teacher, both grandparents were teachers.
Teachers seem to get the blame when students do not succeed or can not
read.... it is the system, not the teachers (for the most part), that
are failing to properly educate our youth.
With all of this said, there are children who have legitimate special
needs- but these needs should be met in special education settings,
not in the mainstream- it does not work- the concept has been
misconstrued. Kids with special needs need special attention- parents
do not want their children "ostracized" but what they do not realize
is that it is for the best for that child- it is not because no one
wants to deal with them or they are being punished- if anything, this
works so much better for them in the long run but parents, in their
ignorance of the way they system works, make demands that their child
be acommodated so accommodating takes place- at the expense of the
quality of education everyone, including their child, receives.
Special education requirements need to be met by teachers who are
specially trained for this. Regular education teachers are not trained
on how to deal with these special needs children, they are just told
what they can and can not do, and what special accommodations have to
be made for them. That is it!
Until someone who really cares about education, someone who has been
in the trenches, teaching grade 7 for years- until someone who truly
understands what the needs are and where the shortfalls are- until
this person steps into a role of power- the true problems will never
be made public, and the solution will never even be suggested much
less put in place.
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Post by Gabby
Post by m***@hotmail.com
I disagree. I've seen too many cases firsthand to agree. The  education
system is a joke. Keep in mind Mr. Warren, that the morons that are
being ouched through school will be running the country when you're a
senior citizen
Anecdotes do not provide sound evidence of a given phenomenon but they
are more persuasive thaan other forms of evidence because they are
often personal and emotional. Sure, you could find students who have
graduated from the system in NL who are academically incompetent but
they in no way are generalizable to the population of students in this
province. By your logic smoking is a great thing because most people I
know who have smoked for many years have lived long healthy lives.
The real evidence lies in students' actual grades as they progress
through the school system, in combination with the results of
standardized tests - province wide comparsions which are valid can be
made from such data. Having analyzed such data from several school
years (within the last 6 years) I can tell you that student scores
across all subject areas are where they are supposed to be for a
normal population. The education system is not a joke - at least not
based on the few cases you have observed.
Mark
I don't put too much credence in the 'standardized tests' since I
found out from a teacher friend of mine that teachers in that school
routinely change answers for their class in order not to look bad.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
This is a problem and any teacher who acts in this manner should find
themselves without a job. There are shady teachers out there, as with
other professions, which can give others a bad name.
Mark- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
That's quite the rant! You do raise some good points, but some of the
issues you raise can be dealt with in the regular classroom with an
appropriate knowledge base and flexibility - however, I do agree that
a dual stream system is in the best interests of the children involved
as some children will only meet sucess with help from a special
education teacher. A number of points you raised are misconceptions of
how children with said disabilties are supposed to be dealt with in
the classroom - it is not a free for all as you state - you can have a
class which runs very smoothly even if it contains a number of
children with emotional/behavioural disorders. The problem as I see it
(and many professionals in the system see it) is lack of training and
resources as well as support from school administration to aid in
dealing with this population. As a result, too many children get
referred for a comprehensive assessment without appropriate pre-
referral interventions. Teachers clearly need more training on how to
be effective teachers in a "inclusive" classroom and as you say this
is not necessarily the fault of the teachers but I know of many
teachers who have been able to manage such a classroom with only minor
issues. I fully understand that there are problems with the education
system, with something so complex and which caters to so many
individuals who are diverse, there will be problems. But they are
being addressed. I would not call the system a joke based on a few
issues - the outcomes are actually quite positive in the end. If I
were a teacher I would find it offensive to have the education system
called a joke because i know of so many teachers who work their asses
off to ensure that children have an appropriate education - and I know
of many "people in power" who strive to ensure that the system works
and who place the education of children and their unique needed first.

Mark

Mark

Mark
m***@gmail.com
2019-02-13 03:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Wow New Mom, you really explained what is going on in the schools. Thankyou,it really helps to know what the kids and teachers are having to deal with.
Davvee
2009-06-09 08:50:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Was this child diagnosed with any sort of disability? The situation
you describe sounds like an individual with some form of a learning
disability. If what you report is in fact the case, then this is the
exception and not the general rule.
Baloney! Have you ever seen he list of "accomodations" put into place
for kids with learning disabilities? A kid doesn't have to know how to
read to graduate from high school. Basic literacy and numeracy are no
longer requirements for graduation. In fact, neither MUN, the MI or CONA
can reject a functionally illiterate person if they had been diagnosed
with a learning disability in school.

In the case you mention i'd also
Post by m***@hotmail.com
question the parenting skills of your friend cause if this child's
problems in school were not the result of a diagnosed exceptionality
then he was probably not getting the support at home.
Thats a bit of a sweeping statement and totally unfair to the parents.
You know nothing about them or the kid.
If it were my
Post by m***@hotmail.com
child, homework and assignments would be done - with my supervision
and/or aid if necessary.
Interesting. How would you propose to "supervise" a kid at home who
can't read? I'd bet you'd end up doing the work for him.

If the best my child could do was get 60's
Post by m***@hotmail.com
then fine, but it would be his/her best effort.
I'm not denying a potential failure of the school system here...just
pointing out that it works quite well for the majority of students who
enroll in K-12 in NL.
Yes....because of the "accmmodations" put in place by the "experts" at
the dept. of education. Can't read? No problem....Can't add or
subtract?...No problem either. Have you ever read the results of the
CRT's (criterion reference tests) taken at the end of grade 9? Most kids
in grade 9 last time around failed basic math skills. Most kids in grade
9 barely passed language arts. If you want to know how "most" high
school kids are doing coming out of high school, I suggest that they all
be given the same basic math & english tests. I'm confident you would
find that we are graduating many many functionally illiterates.
Post by m***@hotmail.com
Mark
m***@hotmail.com
2009-06-09 13:14:24 UTC
Permalink
Baloney! Have you ever seen  he list of "accomodations" put into place
for kids with learning disabilities? A kid doesn't have to know how to
read to graduate from high school. Basic literacy and numeracy are no
longer requirements for graduation. In fact, neither MUN, the MI or CONA
can reject a functionally illiterate person if they had been diagnosed
with a learning disability in school.
Yes, I have seen accomodations and supports as outlined by a given
child's ISSP - I have written them. I find it disconcerting that you
are suggesting that the school system is a failure and a joke because
some students who have been diagnosed as having a learning disability
graduate have issues with reading and writing (most, in fact, can read
and write with supports in place. However, there are cases of
disabilities in which there are severe academic impairments which will
never be improved). The academic problems of these individuals are
caused by the disability NOT the failure of the school system. The
system can only do so much to help these individuals - some LD kids
will do well with supports and some won't, this is a reality.
Depending on the severity of a given child's LD and the nature of the
supports given, many of these children will not get a high school
diploma but they will move through the system (if they do not drop out
first). Would you blame the health care system of failure because of
someone's depression? BTW, MUN can reject a functionally illiterate
person for admission if he/she does not meet the entrance requirements
- i'm not sure who told you otherwise. However, legally MUN must
adhere to accomodations and supports which are recommended by the
department of education for a LD student, providing they meet the
university's definition of a LD. In fact, in the past MUN has refused
to provide accomdations for a child who was diagnosed as having a LD
in the K-12 system because it was deemed that the child did not have a
LD according to the university's criteria.
  In the case you mention i'd also
Post by m***@hotmail.com
question the parenting skills of your friend cause if this child's
problems in school were not the result of a diagnosed exceptionality
then he was probably not getting the support at home.
Thats a bit of a sweeping statement and totally unfair to the parents.
You know nothing about them or the kid.
you are right about that - it is a sweeping statement and I apologize
for that. There may be some merit to the statement but it is wrong to
apply it to all parents.
Post by m***@hotmail.com
child, homework and assignments would be done - with my supervision
and/or aid if necessary.
Interesting. How would you propose to "supervise" a kid at home who
can't read? I'd bet you'd end up doing the work for him.
Not at all. However, if the case mentioned is not the result of a LD -
it probably is not although it fits the description in some ways -
then there is some other factor. It sounds like pure laziness on the
kids part to me. As a parent I would not find that acceptable and
would make sure time is spent getting assignments finished. you'd be
surprised how motivating taking away one's XBOX or car priviledges can
be! As for helping a child at home who cannot read - this is critical,
especially for those diagnosed with a LD. Lack of parental support is
often a major factor why some kids fail in school - it is not just the
teacher's job to educate children.
Yes....because of the "accmmodations" put in place by the "experts" at
the dept. of education. Can't read? No problem....Can't add or
subtract?...No problem either. Have you ever read the results of the
CRT's (criterion reference tests) taken at the end of grade 9? Most kids
in grade 9 last time around failed basic math skills. Most kids in grade
9 barely passed language arts. If you want to know how "most" high
school kids are doing coming out of high school, I suggest that they all
be given the same basic math & english tests. I'm confident you would
find that we are graduating many many functionally illiterates.
I addressed this earlier. and yes i have seen the results of the
CRT's.

Mark
Jessica
2009-06-09 15:08:29 UTC
Permalink
He was never diagnosed... but yes, I suspect he does have some sort of
learning disability. His parents are a lot of the problem. They let him
slide by the seat of his pants. His mother even bragged how he never had
homework or assignments. I guess she thought he was doing them all in
school. Sadly, education isn't a huge priority for this family, they have a
daughter who is a high school drop out and this son. As long as he was
going on to the next grade they considered him as passing. I always told
her, he didn't pass, they are just putting him on. How do they expect a
child to do well in the next grade when they obviously don't understand the
concepts of the previous grades?
My friend's son "graduated" from grade 12 a couple of years ago. I think
the last grade he actually passed was grade 4. All the other years he was
passed on. When he got in the higher grades he slacked all year. No
homework, no assignments, barely passed any tests/exams, if he did pass it
was only by a few marks. The last month or so in school the teachers gave
him extra assignments and work to do to make up for not passing the rest of
the year. So basically he slacked for 9 months, did the few pitiful
assignments at the end of the year and they gave him a pass to get his
credits. I remember one night when he was in about grade 9. He decided to
write a story (not for homework). He was working away writing on this
sheet
of paper. When he was finished he started to read it. When he finished
reading, he put the piece of paper on the table and I looked at what he
wrote. None of the words on the paper made sense. What he was 'reading'
definitely was not what was on the paper. Not even close! This guy is now
considered a high school graduate, but I can guarantee he barely knows how
to write his own name. I'm definitely not perfect when it come to writing,
but I was shocked that someone at that age could be so illiterate.
Was this child diagnosed with any sort of disability? The situation
you describe sounds like an individual with some form of a learning
disability. If what you report is in fact the case, then this is the
exception and not the general rule. In the case you mention i'd also
question the parenting skills of your friend cause if this child's
problems in school were not the result of a diagnosed exceptionality
then he was probably not getting the support at home. If it were my
child, homework and assignments would be done - with my supervision
and/or aid if necessary. If the best my child could do was get 60's
then fine, but it would be his/her best effort.

I'm not denying a potential failure of the school system here...just
pointing out that it works quite well for the majority of students who
enroll in K-12 in NL.

Mark
Sherry
2009-06-09 10:23:18 UTC
Permalink
There comes a point when you can't keep holding back a child for failing.
If that was the case we would still have 11 year olds in Grade 1 and 2.
They are moved ahead and their programming changed to meet their needs. I
know this happens in Elementary school.
Post by Jessica
My friend's son "graduated" from grade 12 a couple of years ago. I think
the last grade he actually passed was grade 4. All the other years he was
passed on. When he got in the higher grades he slacked all year. No
homework, no assignments, barely passed any tests/exams, if he did pass it
was only by a few marks. The last month or so in school the teachers gave
him extra assignments and work to do to make up for not passing the rest
of the year. So basically he slacked for 9 months, did the few pitiful
assignments at the end of the year and they gave him a pass to get his
credits. I remember one night when he was in about grade 9. He decided to
write a story (not for homework). He was working away writing on this
sheet of paper. When he was finished he started to read it. When he
finished reading, he put the piece of paper on the table and I looked at
what he wrote. None of the words on the paper made sense. What he was
'reading' definitely was not what was on the paper. Not even close! This
guy is now considered a high school graduate, but I can guarantee he
barely knows how to write his own name. I'm definitely not perfect when
it come to writing, but I was shocked that someone at that age could be so
illiterate.
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card?
I know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No
child left behind policies"
m***@acemacon.org
2020-04-01 23:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No child
left behind policies"
help me pass
s***@gmail.com
2020-06-04 20:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by ThePainter
Do kids still get held back a grade when they fail on there report card? I
know they used to but i'm not sure if they still do today with the "No child
left behind policies"
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